100% proceeds go to the Michael J Fox Foundation.
INTERVIEW: Bob Kendrick
Bob Kendrick, Negro League Museum Baseball, Director of Marketing
I asked Bob about what was the importance of the museum. He focussed on a few things very quickly: educating the public and archiving the actual voices of the players from that era.
BK:
It’s important to archive the way we have because you can hear from these players in their own words. And that’s the best learning experience that we can give a child. I can take them through the museum all day long and tell them about the history, but these guys lived it.
We’re trying to keep this history alive, when a child comes to visit this museum, instead of just getting a biographical look at these athletes, they’ll now get
DC:
Have you talked to many people that actually saw Satchell Paige play?
BK:
Yeah, and that’s going to be the next phase of this project -- to get the crowd’s perspective, the fan’s perspective and what it was like for them. To a person, you hear people come in and say the league has brought great joy. It was, obviously a shameful period in American history -- segregation was an ugly piece of American history -- but the Negro Leagues kind of emerged from that and in many respects helped a lot of folks forget about what was happening in our society at that time. Baseball brought joy to a lot of people’s lives at that time and they just light up when they come in here. Because they do remember being at those games. They remember what they wore to the game; they remember seeing those great athletes perform at those games and Satchell was probably the player that -- I think everybody in America has probably seen Satchell Paige -- or at least they profess to have seen him.
Satchell lived such a life and the lore and legend that surrounds him is probably as great as any athlete in American sports history. A guy who played until, only God knows how old he was...you know they say he was 42 when he joined Cleveland in 1948. He was probably closer to 52 than 42. He never told his real age. Satchell was fond of saying “age (is) simply a matter of mind over matter -- if you don’t mind, it don’t matter.” And truthfully that’s how he led his life. Satchell was believed to have been 59 years old when Charlie Finley brings him back here to pitch for the Kansas City A’s before they move back to Oakland. and he pitches three shutout innings against the Boston Red Sox. He gave up one hit in three innings. It’s just amazing.
But there were so many guys who played in relative obscurity except for the isolated group of fans who saw them, but nobody ever really talked about seeing them. They were filling up the ball parks, it just happened to be all black fans in many occasions although when they went down south you had just as many white fans in the ball park as you did black fans. And believe it or not, we sat together during that era of segregation where doing anything socially together was virtually unheard of, Negro Leagues Baseball brought both races together. And we sat side by side watching the best baseball in the country being played -- certainly the most exciting baseball being played in this country.
DC:
I didn’t realize that. I thought they were still segregated ---
BK:
Not at the Negro League games. We sat together. And that’s the irony of it: here’s a story that is born out of segregation that becomes the driving force for social change in this country. It was the Negro Leagues that gave America one of it’s greatest heroes in Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinson’s career began right here in Kansas City with the great Kansas City Monarchs in 1945. (This is) where he played his real rookie season. Where he really crafted his trade as a member of the Monarchs. (He would) go on to break baseball’s color barrier, and in our estimation, really that moment in American history changed everything. We believe that Jackie Robinson’s breaking of the color barrier signalled the beginning of the modern day civil rights movement in this country, although it has really never been linked in that capacity. Most folks will recognize it, but they point to those other more notable civil rights occurences. But this is 1947. This is before Brown vs. the Board of Education. This is before Rosa Parks refusal to move to the back of the bus. Martin Luther King Jr. was a sophomore at Morehouse College when Robinson signs his contract at the end of the 1945 season. President Truman doesn’t integrate the military until a year later. So really, for all intents and purposes, Robinson and his breaking of the color barrier changed things almost immediately. While it didn’t have the legislative impact as those other civil rights occurences, it did collectively have Americans standing up and speaking out against social injustice. And then our country started to follow suit. But it was baseball, of all things, that has become the equalizer in terms of helping improve the social advancement of our country.
DC:
I knew it was early, but I didn’t realize until you put it in that order...
BK:
And I think that’s the thing that grabs our visitors when they come to see the museum. I think most of the folks that come here expect to come and meet some great baseball players. At this point in time, people have become more accepting of the fact that there were some guys who could play this game who never got the opportunity to play in the Major Leagues. But by the time they leave here I think they have a newfound appreciation for how great this country really is. Because this story couldn’t happen anywhere else but in America -- both good and bad. The underlying message here is if you dare to dream in this country, you can do and be anything you want to. And there is no more poignant example than Negor League Baseball. Did they understand that they were making history? No. They just wanted to play ball. That’s all they wanted to do. And in the process, they did make history and they helped make this country the great country that she is.
RC:
One of the interesting things in the video I noticed was when they talked about in the opening, with James Earl Jones, and he was mentioning that it ended up being almost a blessing at first that they were rejected by the white ownership because it gave the black folk at that time a chance to own at that time.
BK:
Exactly.
RC:
And they became very profitable. What was the gentleman’s name? Rube...?
BK:
Rube Foster. Andrew Rube Foster who founded the Negro Leagues here in Kansas City in a meeting that took place at the old Paseo YMCA about a block and a half from where the museum operates. He established the league in 1920 and you’re right, it was a sense of pride in the African-American community because this was something that was expressedly ours. It was created in our community and, for the most part, it was for our community although it opened its doors to everyone. It really did. It opened it’s doors to white fans. It opened it’s doors to Latin ball players who had an opportunity to play professionally in this country when they, too, were shunned from the Major Leagues. So it was really an all-inclusive league, but still, it’s roots were anchored firmly in the African-American community. It brought great joy and a sense of pride to a people who had obviousy gone through a great deal of adversity socially in this country. And, so you know, it is very important in the greater fabric of our society.
RC:
It seems like, you mention how American this story is, it seems like a great example of that. Because America is supposed to be, at least in theory, a land that values people. And by valuing people who are cast out by others, and you see it in all the cultures across America, people that are ostracized or cast out, they come here and do wonderful things. And even when they are segregated or pushed back, there is an opportunity underlying that for people who are willing to do their work. It’s gonna be difficult. It may not be fair. It may be all those things, but there’s still an opportunity at least.
We’ve been exploring the theme of baseball in terms of, is it “American” still? Not exclusively American but does it still define America. And I think this story you’re giving us now --
BK:
Oh, no question.
RC:
-- It hits on that so well.
BK
No question. Here were men and women who were as American as anyone in this country who were treated as un-American as anyone in this country. Yet they still had the courage, the passion and the commitment to prove that they could play this game. This was America’s so-called past-time. And they wanted to play this game. And in the process, they really did enrich everyone by doing so. That commitment and that passion and that courage was absolutely tremendous. And we say here all the time that the story of Negro Leagues Baseball is not an African American story, it is an All-American story. Because it is the kind of story we as Americans have typically embraced. Because it is a great story of pride, it is a great story of courage, it is a great story of men and women who flat out refused to accept the notion that they were unfit to play this game. And so you won’t let me play in this league? I’ll create a league of my own. And that league -- that’s the American spirit. That’s the entrepreneurial spirit that has helped separate this country from the other countries of the world. And that’s really what this country was built on. That same spirit, that same fervor, that created a league that really played second to none. This was a league that lasted for 40 years in this country which surprises a lot of folks. From 1920 until 1960 creating economic opportunities in cities all over this country as a result of that. Black businesses were fluorishing as a result of Negro Leagues Baseball. It really is a type of all-encompassing social history alongside all those great athletes that could play this game as well as anyone.
RC:
It’s such a strange thought to think that, “Wow, if this person with a different color skin can play baseball, maybe I can accept him sitting next to me on the bus, too.” But there is that link there.
BK:
Think about this game. Think about this game today without Barry Bonds, without Alex Rodriguez, without Willie Mays, without Hank Aaron, without Ernie Banks, without Ernie Campanella. If you can imagine that game without those great players -- without Roberto Clemente -- those guys, had it been 60 years earlier, would have had to play in the Negro Leagues and America would have missed some of the greatest baseball players to have ever played this game. So you can see where we’re going with this story because America missed Josh Gibson. They got Satchell Paige when he was a very old man. They missed Cool Papa Bell. They missed Buck Leonard. They missed Pop Lloyd, Oscar Charleston -- so it’s very easy once people get a grasp and a better understanding that there were two professional leagues operating in this country simultaneously. One, everybody knows about the Major Leagues, the other, very few folks know about the Negro Leagues. But the athletes were just as good, they just happened to be black.
DC:
Really gives you the other side of the picture.
BK:
It does. We have a great story to tell and we have a story that has messages that will never die. Long after these players are gone, the messages that they helped create through their love of the game of baseball will forever live. And there are things that I believe children should be exposed to. Those values never go away: pride, courage, entrepreneurial spirit, the ability and the willigness to overcome adversity, those messages never die. Those are things that need to reverberate from generation to generation and that’s what we hope will serve as an inspirational tool when folks come here to visit the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.
DC:
You’re really putting to words the thing we’ve been looking for in terms of the American baseball experience.
RC:
Yeah -- is baseball American? And this really summarizes it.
BK:
Oh, I think so. Absolutely.
RC:
And I think, too, there’s a quote from Willie Mays that I really loved when he talked about this is what we’ve been dreaming for and praying for when Jackie broke the color barrier. It was the disolving of the Negro Leagues -- and it was an integration where together all the people lifted (baseball) even higher. And it gave people hope. People without hope are a desperate and sad people. People with hope, with possibility -- it’s not just for playing baseball, it’s taken a long time, but getting managers and ownership and working toward all these things.You may have heard “a black man can never be a pitcher just like a black man can never be a quarterback because these are thinking positions”, right? Now you start to dissolve those old ideas. And now (fans say) , Wait a minute, now the Japanese are coming in and the Koreans are coming in and when you bring all these cultures together, everybody lifts the game to a higher level. And that black folk didn’t turn their back on America when very well they could have
BK:
Absolutely.
RC:
That really amazes me because of the various contributions that the black culture has brought to the American culture. You talk about music, sports, movies -- all these different things.
BK:
I used to ask Buck (O’Neil) whether or not they played the National Anthem at a Negro Leagues game. Because it seems so odd, that here were a people that were being excluded from our national past time yet they always played the National Anthem, they always felt proud to be American, because we were American. Even though America was, in some instances, turning its back on African-Americans who obviously had a great hand in building this country an essentially built this country, they still held true to that American spirit. Even though we were being treated in such an adverse manner. I just found that to be amazing that it would be that way. I’m still amazed at those athletes that played this game who harbor very little, if any, (anger) about the social injustice that was dealt on them. You know all they see is the opportunities that they had. And that opportunity to play baseball has created opportunities for them. Hollywood, in its efforts to enlighten folks about the Negro Leagues has not done the greatest job because they’ve casted these athletes as being vagabonds, tramps and hobos and that is so far from the truth. A great many, matter of fact a disproportionate number of those guys that played in the Negro Leagues were college educated men. Greater than 40% of the men who played in the Negro Leagues had some level of college education. When you compare that to the Major Leagues of that same era, less than 5% of the Major Leaguers had any sort of college education because the Major Leagues at that time didn’t want you to go to college. They got you out of high school, put you in a farm system and you worked your way up to the big leagues.
So these guys (in the Negro Leagues) were being cast as tramps and hobos were actually more intellectual than their white counterparts. You know, Jackie goes to Brooklyn -- Jackie’s a college graduate from UCLA. He’s probably smarter than every guy on that bench. Yet he’s being treated in this manner. You know, it’s really interesting how things are twisted and turned to kind of fit the way that we want it to be versus the way that it really is.
And so that’s what we’re trying to do with this museum. We’re just trying to open people’s eyes and tell the story in all of it’s splendor and all of it’s glory the way that ishould have been told years ago.
RC:
And you think how threatening that had to be to white America at that time.
BK:
Had to be.
RC:
There’s almost nothing more scary for someone who’s ignorant, than to have someone who’s intelligent come toward them. The only thing they’re left with is their fists and their anger which is pretty much how Jackie seemed to be treated. I remember watching Ken Burns’ documentary about this and Branch Rickey, it was incredible how he sat down with Jackie and said, here’s the deal: you’re going to come on board, you’re going to spend your time in Montreal and when you come to this league, you say nothing for, what was it, three years?
BK:
Three years.
RC:
Three years you say nothing. That turn the other cheek thing where, I can’t even imagine the things that were said to him, on and off the field, the pressures -- and with all of that to continue to play at the level he did, and let his game do the talking. Man that is one of the greatest ideas. That he was courageous enough to do that.
BK:
And Jackie wasn’t the best player in the Negro Leagues. He wasn’t even the best player on his own Monarch team and that is not to disparage Jackie Robinson. Jackie Robinson is one of the greatest athletes in American sports history. But there were other Negro League veterans who were superior baseball players. These were players who would have succeeded had they been given an opportunity but that was a tough task. Jackie was absolutely the right guy. Keep in mind, Jackie Robinson is not playing for Jackie Robinson. He is carrying an entire race of people on his shoulders. Had he failed, who knows how long it would have been before another African American would have been given an opportunity to play in the Major Leagues. It would have been so easy for the naysayers to say, see I told you they couldn’t handle it.
(Branch Rickey) had not only to find the right guy who could handle the adversity, you also had to find a guy who could play. Because if he can’t play, again, it would have been easy to say, I told you they can’t play at this level. Even though they knew -- their white counterparts knew that they could play. They played countless exhibition games against each other and the record books bear out that the Negro Leagues won the majority of those head to head competitions. Their peers knew that they could play. Jackie’s job was doubly difficult. This is a tough enough game to play under normal circumstances. Playing this game and carrying a whole race of people on your shoulders, that’s serious.
That’s why, in my estimation, the story of Jackie Robinson is the greatest story of the 20th century. Because you can divide this country into two pieces: before Jackie, and after Jackie.
RC:
That’s beautifully said. We can’t thank you enough.
BK:
I’m just glad that you guys would make this one of your stops.
RC:
I think it’s very important. Because this trip (going to all the parks) has become more and more romanticized. And maybe people would go to other places like the Field of Dreams or the Louisville Slugger Museum. But you know, I don’ think everyone would think about coming here. And if we can be part of that --
BK:
You gotta come here. You don’t know baseball until you come here to learn this story.
RC:
You gotta here the whole story.
BK:
Right.
RC:
Because we wouldn’t be watching the game we’re watching today, we wouldn’t be living in the society we’re living in today had it not been for (Negro Leagues) baseball and had it not played out the way it did.
BK:
That’s right.
